Wednesday, March 11, 2009

The Israel "Lobby"

A recent incident involving Charles (Chas) Freeman has provoked the anti-Israel crowd. The background facts are these. Charles Freeman, a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia and diplomat, was President Obama's choice for the position of Chair of the National Intelligence Council. According to its website, the NIC is a center for "strategic thinking within the U.S. Government" and provides the President with "analyses of foreign policy issues" etc. News of Charles Freeman's pending appointment provoked opposition. Critics of the appointment were concerned that past statements made by Freeman concerning Israel's treatment of Palestinians and China's Tiananmen Square massacre, as well as his past ties with the China National Offshore Oil Co., and a Middle East think tank funded in part by Saudi Arabia, made Freeman a poor choice for the position. This week Freeman withdrew his candidacy for the position and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, accepted the withdrawal.

End of story? Not quite. The episode, which has been hotly debated in the blogosphere, is to some yet another example of the undue power and influence of the nefarious Israel "Lobby". Charles Freeman himself blamed the "Lobby" for his decision to withdraw. The Lobby, according to Freeman, is "intent on enforcing the will and interests of a foreign government" in opposition to the best interests of the United States. This is of course a common refrain, popularized by such writers as Professors John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, who wrote the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy".

It is not my intent in this posting to comment on the choice of Freeman to head up the NIC, his decision to withdraw, the strength of the reasons for the opposition to the appointment, or the wisdom of the administration's decision to accept the withdrawal. What I do want to comment on is this whole notion that there is a powerful Israel Lobby out there which has distorted US foreign policy and has somehow forced the electorate and their governments to make stupid decisions which are contrary to their own best interests.

The fact that there are interested individuals and associations which attempt to persuade their governments to adopt policies, whether they be domestic or foreign, which they support and advocate, is a good thing. It is called democracy. It is what people do in free societies. It is normal. By calling it a "Lobby", with a capital L, is to attempt to convert a normal, accepted, good idea into some sort of nefarious conspiracy. There is no secret "Lobby" at work here with spooky music in the background. Those who advocate for Israel and for the United States' support of it do so openly and strongly. Other "Lobbyists" do the same thing with respect to the policies which they believe in. Good, I say.

Secondly, the theory that this pro-Israel "Lobby" is so powerful that it can somehow trick the electorate into democratically voting for governments who will not act in their country's best interests, but in the interests of a "foreign" government, is incredibly naive and presumptuous on the part of the persons who push it. More seriously, it is unbelievably dismissive and insulting of the electorate themselves. The governments of Canada, the United States, Great Britain, Western Europe, among others, are all strong supporters and allies of Israel. The populations of these countries know this in advance of elections but yet still vote these governments into power, election after election. Why? Why would they vote for governments who do not, according to the Freemans of this world, act in the best interests of their own countries, but bend to the will of a foreign government? Is the electorate too stupid to realize who and what they are voting for? Have these poor, ignorant rubes been duped by the "Lobby"? Or is it just that the populations of these countries have intelligently judged these matters and actually support their governments' allegiances to the State of Israel? Is it that the "Lobby" is so powerful, or is it that the "Lobby" actually promotes the same principles and goals that the majority of the electorate stand for? If the latter is true, the Freemans, Mearsheimers and Walts of the world would be better off aiming their guns at their fellow citizens rather than at some devious "Lobby".

The same point could be made of the elected officials themselves. Are they too stupid to realize that they have been taken in by the "Lobby" and are not acting in the best interests of their countries, as they are sworn to do? Has the "Lobby" duped them as well? Or is it that they are actually acting in the best interests of their countries and are carrying out the policies and principles that they and their electorates believe in? The preposterous presumptuousness displayed by Freeman, Mearsheimer and Walt that they alone have discovered the "truth" about Israel and the Lobby, and only they have been able to avoid its power and influence, while everyone around them has lost their heads, is offensive.

One final point. Yes there is an Israel lobby that supports the State of Israel. But it is miniscule compared to the Anti-Israel Lobby which wishes the state harm. When you consider the contempt displayed for Israel and even the expressed wish to see it destroyed as a Jewish state by countries such as Iran, much of the Arab world, the so-called non-aligned countries, many of the countries in the United Nations, many of the attendees at the Durban-type conferences, and other states ruled by dictators, the size of the global Anti-Israel Lobby dwarfs that of the Israel Lobby which Freeman, Mearsheimer and Walt rail against. We all to some degree belong to one "lobby" or the other. Which one do you choose Ambassador Freeman?

28 comments:

  1. YES INFACT PROF SKLAR YOUR MAKING THE GOOD POINTS.

    BUT YOU ARE OF WEAKLING IN ARGUMENT. THE MEARESHIMER AND THE WALT ARE SMAL AND HAIRLESS MEN OK!!! AND THE HAIRLESSNESS IS THE FAULT OF THE NEOREALIMSNESSHIP THEY ARE OF SPEEKE AND THINK. THEY ARE NOT THINK OF FACT, EVIDENCES OR OTHERS.

    AND SO YOUR GOOD END IS HAVING THE WEAK TOO. IAM SEEING NO FACT. GRADESCHOOLINGS COUNTERFACTUALS, YES. YOU'RE HART IS RIGHT, BUT THE THINKINSHIPS IN THIS END IS WEAKE SIRE!! IAM EXPECT BETER FROM MEN OF MUCH LEARNINGSHIPS.

    YOUR FRIEND

    DR. JAIMEL ESSEX-DESSINGES

    ReplyDelete
  2. Thank you "my friend" for commenting on one of my posts, yet again. As you and some of my other readers have noted, I removed one of your earlier similar comments, discussing "hairy" and "hairless" men etc. It might have appeared to some that you were removed because I disagreed with your point of view. I want to assure my readers that that is something which I would not of course do. All points of view are welcomed here. I think it is now obvious to my readers why your comment (which they never saw) was removed before. You have by this comment clarified this matter. As we say in law "the facts speak for themselves". My decision now is whether to continue deleting you, which is easily done, or allow you to continue to comment. For now I have decided to allow your comments to appear. If my readers get fed up with them, I will reconsider. I will leave the decision up to my readers. Thanks again for helping me out here by clarifying the matter.

    ReplyDelete
  3. PROFESOR KALR,

    I AM AGRE8ING WITH YOU SIR FOR BENEFITS OF ALL IS B ETTER FOR DEBATE THAT WE PERMIT EXPRESSIONS OK!!!!!!!

    BUT YOU WERE NOT ADDRESSING ARGUMETNSATIONS OF FRIEND JAIMEL. WHY PERMITE EXPERESSIONS IF UNCIVIL REPLY IS FORTHSCOMINGS! MAYBE IG7NORE MAYBE ANWSER BUT MOCKINGSHIPS? N00OOOOO00000!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hi Professor Klar,

    You wrote that "There is no secret "Lobby" at work here with spooky music in the background. Those who advocate for Israel and for the United States' support of it do so openly and strongly."

    This isn't a totally accurate statement: two high-ranking AIPAC lobbyists have been indicted for espionage, including Steven Rosen, the man who led the fight against Chas Freeman's nomination. Mr. Rosen works for Daniel Pipes, the neoconservative "scholar" whose views could charitably be called radical and Ann Coulter-esque.

    The US-Israel relationship is obviously a touchy subject. this piece by historian Tony Judt asks whether the censorship of dissenting views on Israel is a good thing. Judt's a respected historian (and a Jew), and he thinks that the whole issue isn't being debated for fear of being seen as legitimizing the notion of "Jewish conspiracy". I think we agree that such self-censorship isn't helpful in talking about foreign policy. Prof. Judt, like Mearscheimer and Walt, has been the target of heavy protests from the ADL and the AJC.

    I agree with Judt. Guys like Steven Rosen have suggested that these academic disagreements are akin to bigotry; that's an insult to those who've felt the sting of real racism, and that's exactly the equivalence frequently suggested by the Israel lobby as a whole-- ADL, AJC, and AIPAC, in particular. And it's what cost Chas Freeman his job.

    See you tomorrow,

    Scott

    P.S. Your blog has been attracting some... interesting comments lately, hey?

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  5. A couple of points, Scott.

    First, the fact that some members of the "Lobby" may have been involved in unsavoury activities does not go to my point about the open and public nature of the Lobby. The advocacy of AIPAC, ADL etc is public, open and forceful. That's why we know about it and why these groups come in for so much criticism. I do not think my statement that the Lobby is not some secret body is inaccurate to any degree.

    Second, the fact that there is controversy about the positions that AIPAC takes and the positions that its opponents take is fine with me. This is expected when there is a fierce exchange of views on controversial positions. My point is that ultimately it is up to the electorate to decide what position they want their governments to take and it is up to the government to decide what it is in the best interests of the country. To reject these positions is fine enough if that is how opponents feel. To suggest that these positions are the result of the Lobby's inordinate influence insults the intelligence and integrity of the people and their governments.

    Freeman withdrew and his withdrawal was accepted because HE did not want to proceed (he did not even have to be confirmed) and the Administration (which I assume the Mearshreimer et al group voted for) did not think he was suitable. To suggest that they caved in to the Lobby and acted against US interests in so doing, is to give this Administration ( remember they are the Change you can believe in folks) very little credit for intelligence, integrity and loyalty to the country. Who takes that view?

    In terms of some of my wackier commentators, I guess that goes with the blogosphere world. It may even increase my hits! Lets hope so.

    Thanks for being a sensible commentator!

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  6. A follow-up.

    Today's Washington Post lambasts Charles Freeman and what they term his "grotesque libel". The editorial notes the following:
    (1) AIPAC says "that it took no formal position on Mr. Freeman's appointment and undertook no lobbying against him". The Washington Post, for example, was never contacted about it.
    (2) It was reportedly Nancy Pelosi who was Freeman's "most formidable" critic, as she was reportedly "incensed by his position on dissent in China". Apparently Freeman thought the Chinese government should have "crushed" the Tianamen Square protesters "sooner". Freeman had business ties to China.
    (3) The Post notes Freeman's and other "conspiracy theorists" "blatant disregard for the facts". Some of these facts are noted particularly with regard to US - Israel disagreements on a number of issues.
    (4) The Post laments the fact that Mr. Freeman's "crackpot tirade" will undoubtedly find an "eager audience here and around the world".

    Question: Is the editorial board of the Washington Post part of the "Lobby"?

    ReplyDelete
  7. BUT AIPECS IS NOT ALONES IN LOBBYISNGS GOOD PROFESSOR KARL!!! sEE NEW Y8ORK TIMES TODAY:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/washington/12lobby.html?_r=1&em

    "Pro-Israel groups weighed in with lower-ranking White House officials. The Zionist Organization of America sent out an “action alert” urging members to ask Congress for an investigation of Mr. Freeman’s “past and current activities on behalf of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.”

    "With opposition to Mr. Freeman mounting, many in the White House were debating the wisdom of the selection, despite Mr. Blair’s public support for him. “In conversations with people associated with this administration, I never detected any enthusiasm for this pick,” said Ira N. Forman, executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council."


    ALSO CONCERNI9NGS CHINAESE TINANMEN SQUARE FREEMAN SAYS:

    "Mr. Freeman said Wednesday that the passage was taken out of context, and that he had been describing the dominant view in China in the years after the crackdown."

    YOU LIKES POST OF WASHINTGON BUT NOT NYTIMES? MAY BE IS CHOICE OF NEWSPAPER BECAUS OF AGREEMENT BUT NOT STRTENGTHS OF ARGUMENTS IN FACT?

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  8. Prof Sklar,

    Although earlier commentator Dr. Jamiel Essex-Dessinge's English is rudimentary at best, his reasoning is incisive.

    You do not address the core question of whether or not the groups who lobby on behalf of Israel have disproportionate impact on appointments or other government business. This is similiar to the same gross sins of omission made by Mearsheimer and Walt. A simple review of the literature indicates that narrowly-focused interest groups have significant influence. As you correctly state, welcome to democracy. But by not seeking out facts or citing a single credible source, and instead merely pontificating, you turn in a remarkably weak argument for a strong case. And that as evidenced by the above critiques. Pundit perhaps; the ivory tower is debatable.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Witherwood

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  9. Thank you Richard and BNM for your comments. With respect, I think you missed my point. I do not argue that the influence of the "Lobby" is either "disproportionate" or "proportionate", as I do not understand what these expressions could possibly mean. I acknowledge that there are interest groups that lobby for their positions, and suggest that that is a good and normal thing in a democracy. It is then up to the governments, chosen by electorates, after a full debate, to fairly determine government policy. I think that they do so in their own best judgment. If the electorate's view of things and the government's policy choices happen to accord with the views of some of the the lobbyists, so what? To suggest that "narrowly-focused interest groups have significant influence" is neither here nor there. It does not prove that the views of these interest groups are wrong-headed, or that the governments whose policies accord with their views, are somehow delinquent, corrupt, or too easily persuaded by phony arguments. I would rather that critics of the "Lobby" persuade us why the electorate and governments which they elect are making the wrong policy decisions, rather than putting it all down to the "disproportionate" influence of narrowly focused interest groups. And if the critics cannot convince the public and the governments that their policies are wrong, well that is just good old democracy at work.

    ReplyDelete
  10. FRINED, AGAIN AGREEINGS WITH YOUR GREATE CONCLUSIONS BUT DIFEREINGHIPNESSES ON THE ARGUE.
    YOUR SAYING :

    “What I do want to comment on is this whole notion that there is a powerful Israel Lobby out there which has distorted US foreign policy and has somehow forced the electorate and their governments to make stupid decisions which are contrary to their own best interests.”

    RECENT POINT YOU'RE OF MAKING IS AGAIN WEAKEN AND HAIRLESS DUE TO LACK OF EVIDENCE. IAM UPHOLDING CONFIDENCE IN YOU SIRE! I AGREE WITH YOU OK ALRIGHT! BUTT PRIORE POSTINGSHIPSS BNM AND OTHERS HAVE CITE FACT. AS YOU DO NOT USING FACTS. YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEEKE AND HAIRLESS SIRE! YOU GIVE NO EVIDENCE, CITE NOTHING! SINCE 1942 (V.O. KEY) ALL ARE OF KNOWING INTRST GROUPS AND POWER. MUCH PUBLISHINGPS IN THIS COUNTRY AND OTHERS ON THIS. IAM HUMBLE MAN OF BUSINESHIPS AND I AM KNOWING THIS OK! AND KNOWING OF COURSE THAT FACTS UPHOLDINGSHIP THE ARGUMENT WHEN ARGUING THE EMPRICLE HAPPENINGS. WHY ARE YOU NOT USING THE FACTS NOW? ARE YOU FEAREING THEM?

    YOU’RE OF MAINLY DOOING THE “THOT XPERMENT”WITCH IS OF USE TO GENERAET THE HYPOTHESESS BUT IS NOT PROOF.

    BUT ABOVE IS INFACT PROOF YOU’RE ARGUINGS ARE SMALL AND HAIRLESSS ALRIGHT! SUCH CHILDISCH ARGUINGS WOULD GET WHAT GRADE IN YOUR ESTEEME CLASSES?

    QED.

    YOUR FRIEND

    DR. JAIMEL ESSEX-DESSINGES

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  11. Any sensible opposition to the very existence of the "Israel Lobby" should coincide with an opposition to lobbying in general. Although I don't agree with them, I do concede that there are legitimate arguments against the system that allows for lobby groups overall.

    The only fair protests against the existence of the Israel lobby would necessitate a protest against the political system that allows for the existence any lobby groups at all.

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  12. Professor Klar,

    You're absolutely right that there should be a "fierce exchange of views." But the climate of this exchange is just terrible. There is a frequent suggestion that anything but blind support of Israeli policy amounts to anti-Semitism. It is this suggestion that Mr. Rosen, Mr. Pipes, and their coterie at (e.g.) AIPAC and ADL traffic in. It is the elephant in the room in all this coverage.
 It's pernicious, it's low, and it distracts from a *necessary* discussion of the national security ramifications of blind support of Israeli policies. Distinguished politicians and scholars with nuanced, centrist views, like George Mitchell or Tony Judt, are summarily attacked by the Israel lobby (no scare quotes necessary). For instance, Mitchell was recently criticized by Abraham Foxman (ADL) as too neutral and too evenhanded. That's a pretty ridiculous criticism, and it underscores the sorry state of what passes for debate on this topic in the US.

    Israeli politics is tumultuous, factional, and eccentric, marked by occasional bigotry from every side. Reasonable people can disagree about of blindly supporting such a government. As Judt put it:

    ...it will not be self-evident to future generations of Americans why the imperial might and international reputation of the United States are so closely aligned with one small, controversial Mediterranean client state. It is already not at all self-evident to Europeans, Latin Americans, Africans or Asians. Why, they ask, has America chosen to lose touch with the rest of the international community on this issue? Americans may not like the implications of this question. But it is pressing. It bears directly on our international standing and influence; and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. We cannot ignore it.


    I don't want to get in to a debate about the merits of the current strategy, because I would probably lose-- I know little about it, and it's a complicated issue. I'm just saying that the current US "debate" isn't working very well.

    Have a good weekend! Let me know when I cross the line from "sensible commentator" into "dumbass"

    -scott

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  13. Everyone seems to want to wade into all sorts of other topics and themes which have absolutely nothing to do with my posting. That's fine; you do not have to stick to my themes and are more than free to raise whatever issues you want.

    But to remind you:

    First, I did not equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. Some critics of Israel are anti-Semites, others are not. This is not the elephant in my room at all. This was not my posting.

    Second, the suggestion that there is "blind support" for Israel is however on point. Why do you describe the support as "blind"? Is it because the electorate and politicians are so intellectually and morally incapable of judging these complicated issues for themselves and are therefore forced to adopt the thinking of a lobby? This is the notion that I am rejecting. Those who wish to denigrate the intellectual and moral courage of those who participate in our democracy by suggesting that they blindly support policies which are against their own countries' interests and contrary to their duties, surely have to make that case. Merely because there is support for the State of Israel by most Western governments and that this support aligns with the policies promoted by the "Lobby" does not ipso facto render that support "blind" or in some way corrupted. Maybe the public and elected officials actually think that this is the right policy. No?

    I think that those who attack the Lobby's influence have no choice but to "get into the debate about the current strategy" since their whole underlying argument is that the current strategy is bad. If they cannot makes this case, their whole argument that it is only blind support forced onto them by a Lobby which accounts for the policies of their governments falls to pieces.

    I suspect that what is at play here is that opponents of the pro-Israel policy are so convinced of the correctness of their views that they simply cannot conceive that any intelligent, rational person could hold some other view. Thus there must be some other reason - like an all powerful, sinister "Lobby" which has taken control of people's minds and their governments. Hogwash!

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  14. What interests me the most about the "Freeman affair" is the question of why he was appointed to such a sensitive post in the first place. His views were well-known; and Obama is not in any position to take the Vatican's dodge that it had never heard of Google [or words to that effect] with respect to Richard Williamson. I am concerned mostly with what it says about the Obama administration that it made what appears to have been a serious error in judgment in such a critical area.

    ReplyDelete
  15. FAKEERS CANADA PE4RSON,
    PAY ATETTNTIONS TO PRFOESSSOR KARL!!!! HE WANTSS US TO FOCUSS ON ORIGINAL INTENTIONSS OF HIS POST. STOP WITH DISTRAQCTSINN ABOUT OBAMA!!! AND I TAKE FROM LAST LINE THAT HE IS WASHING HOGS? I DON'[T UNDERSTNAD PROFESSOR KALR.

    BUT PROFESSOR KALR YOU DO NOT TAKE SEERIOUSLY CRITIUQES OF MY HIRSUTE FRIEND JAIMEL. YOU DON'TS EVEN ADDRESS! WHY POSTINGS IF NOT INT&ERSTED IN OTHERS OIPNIONS? IF NOT TAKES SEIROUSLY FINE, BUT DO NOT POSTS ON MATTERS IN WHICH YOU ARE IG8NROANTS EXCEPTS WHTAT JO SCARBORUGH AND FOX NEWS TEECHES YOU AND CNN ALL RIGHT!!!!!!!! IS NOT SUFICCIENT FOR S*AYIN8GS THAT.

    PLEESE READ ON PUBLICK CHOICEINGS THERY. YOURE QUESTIONS ABOUT LOBBEYISM WERE ASKINGS AND ANSER FORTHCOMMINGS MANY MASNNY YEARS AGO NOW!!!!

    WELCOME FRIEND!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  16. Lewis, re your first comments pertaining to BNM-K that "For now I have decided to allow your comments to appear. If my readers get fed up with them, I will reconsider. I will leave the decision up to my readers."

    I don't mind going on record as saying that BNM-K's continued presence on this blog would definitely discourage me from continuing to your blog - unless he tones down considerably.
    He has addressed me in an inappropriate manner: informing me that my comments were irrelevant,and ordering me to stop making comments, (and putting the whole thing in the online equivalent of "shouting" at me by writing entirely in capital letters with many exclamation points.) I don't expect that you will consider only my opinion, but for what it's worth, here it is.

    ReplyDelete
  17. FAKEERS CANADA PERSON

    PARDONSHIPS!!! I WAS NOT INTENDINGS TO PURVEY TONE OF INSIVILITEE. BUT MY HUMBLE SELFS SUGGESTS YOU TONE DOWN TO AMEN!!!!

    PROF KALR, I SUGGEST SIRE PRUJDENCE IN CHOICE OF COR8RES8PONDNETS. FAKERS CANADA PERSON HAS MUCH NASTY BLOGGYSHIP S SAYINGAS ABOU8TG JUSTICE MARTIN P4ETER OF COURTS OF APPEALS (MAY BE HE IS FRIEND TO YOU SIRE?): http://poormansjustice.blogspot.com/2009/02/peter-martin-post-appendix-1-fame.html

    WELCOME FRIEND!

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  18. Dear Professor Sklar,

    It is quite clear that BNM and Dr. Essex-Dessinges are not possessed of strong communications skills in the English language. That said, both are offering nuanced critiques of both the epistemological and ontological aspects of your arguments, and for that you should be thankful. Interestingly, both cite public choice theory, which is quite germane to any debate on interest groups and shows considerable intellectual sophistication, again contributing to the strength of the followership of this blog. Furthermore, although intellectually vigorous in debate, they are both polite in discourse. I strongly support their right to post, as I support Fakirs Canada's as well, despite his weak partisan point. Let a hundred flowers bloom Professor; even now your blog seems to be attracting quite a diverse following.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Witherwood

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  19. If BNM-K is capable of reading my posts on Peter Martin, then his English is not what he is making it out to be, nor is it "rudimentary at best," as Richard Witherwood feigns to describe it.

    As for the "nuanced reasoning" in his posts, Richard Witherwood is having you on - while ignoring the truly nuanced comments of Scott Matheson.

    I think you are being pranked, Lewis. I think the commentators: Richard Witherwood,"Dr. Jamiel Essex-Dessinge" and BNM-K are all one and the same person.

    Don't you give law students enough homework to keep them out of mischief?

    I don't really have much of a sense of humour for that kind of thing - I'll check back here in a month or so, when, hopefully, the gremlins will have graduated and gone off to plague some law firm.
    Best wishes,
    Marnie Tunay
    Fakirs Canada
    http://fakirscanada.googlepages.com/

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hi Marnie:

    I agree that all are the same person. I think actually it is a pity that he or she does not engage in substantive discussion, since it appears that he or she might have something sensible to say. I also would prefer that commentators identify who they are, as you and I have done, but if they feel more comfortable using false names, so be it.

    I hope you reconsider your decision to abandon this blog, but understand your position. It is annoying to have to put up with pranksters, but that I guess comes with the turf. Perhaps we will one day discover who this prankster is and try to figure out what his/her objective is. If it was to sabotage this blog, then by your decision to withdraw, I guess that to some extent he has been successful.

    Cheers,

    Lewis

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  21. Lewis,
    Your initial post undertook to comment on "this whole notion that there is a powerful Israel Lobby out there which has distorted US foreign policy.''
    Good topic. But your comment was merely to assert that lobbying "is called democracy. It is what people do in free societies. It is normal."
    Yes, lobbying is normal, but so is democratic imperfection. If we examine American democracy critically, we must ask: Which lobbying efforts serve democracy and the public interest by enhancing political participation, by elevating public debate, and by clarifying the balance of public opinion? And which lobbying efforts subvert democracy by distorting information and by applying democratically-inappropriate forms of power and influence upon public officials?
    I had hoped for facts -- not articles of democratic faith or characterizations of critics as "naive ... presumptuous ... dismissive ... insulting... offensive."
    When one responder raised the issue of proportionate or disproportionate influence, you replied, "I do not understand what these expressions could possibly mean."
    Really? Then you can't understand a serious discussion of what's good and bad about lobbying.
    You say critics of the Israel lobby assume "blind support" by politicians. And you glibly refute this straw man.
    But you ignore the possibility, not of blind support, but of unduly influenced support. I'm not saying it happens, with the Israel lobby --just that your unexamined presumption of "good old democracy" is unconvincing.
    Ron C

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  22. Hi Ron:

    My point is that all "lobbying" is a normal part of free and democratic societies. Efforts to convince the public and the politicians to adopt certain policies as opposed to other policies are fine. Of course, if "lobbying" turns into influence peddling, or other illegal acts intended to buy political support, etc. we are talking about a different kettle of fish. I am assuming that these types of crimes are not being raised by Freeman and others against members of the Israel Lobby.

    If you or others wish to suggest that certain lobbyists have "disproportionate" influence, that politicians "blindly" support Israel, that some support is "unduly influenced", then certainly it is incumbent on you to explain these terms, not me. How can I know what you mean by these words?

    Hypothetical questions. Does the "pro choice" lobby have disproportionate influence, the blind support of politicians, or "undue" support? Do those who favour multiculturalism, two official languages, or the Charter of Rights have "disproportionate influence", the "blind" support of politicians or "undue" influence? If I were making those allegations would you not challenge me to explain why I would characterize the support by using these highly charged words? Could it be that if one is opposed to a government policy, it is only then that one accuses the government of being unduly influenced by an all powerful lobby? If one likes the policy adopted then of course the lobby efforts are just fine.

    Fair questions or not?

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  23. Lewis,
    I assume that "disproportionate influence" is influence beyond such legitimate factors as rational arguments and reasonable projections. Presumably, disproportionate influence flows from factors such as financial power, political partisanship, personal friendship, or religious or ethnic loyalty -- all of which may be normal but can be undemocratic.
    This conversation began with your critique of Charles Freeman's rationalization of his behaviour in terms of the Israel lobby. I agree that the onus is on him to show how that particular lobby is unduly influential.
    Then the conversation became more general. No doubt, "undue influence" is a common whine of political losers. But politics and government do not treat all people with equal regard in the United States, or Canada, or anywhere. One cause is the unequal distribution of political power, wealth, personal relationships, access and lobbying skill. The pursuit of a healthier democracy is not well served either by naively accepting all claims of such inequalities -- nor by complacently ignoring all such claims.
    Ron C

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  24. Hi Ron:

    First, if politicians support policies which are unsupported by "rational arguments and reasonable projections", why blame the Lobbyists? Shouldn't Freeman, Walt and others be questioning the intelligence, honesty and courage of the Obama administration in falling for such nonsensical arguments? Or is the honeymoon still on?

    Second, I appreciate your concession that those who argue that a "Lobby" has taken control of the government, have the obligation to prove it. I also appreciate your efforts to define "disproportionate", although I do not agree that all of the items you list make the influence "disproportionate". I would agree with some things though. For example, treating lobbyists unequally by giving some of them access to policy makers while denying the same access to others, or favouring your friends because they are your friends, distorts the process. It would again have to be shown that this is the case with any particular Lobby group and that as a result of this, irrational policies are implemented.

    This is, of course, the same complaint that groups on the right, pro-life groups, and others on university campuses and elsewhere make - that they are denied the same access and rights accorded to the "other" side to advocate for their positions. I would hope that those who are against disproportionate lobbying would support equal access for these other groups as well, notwithstanding that they do not support the policies advocated for.

    The problem is of course that it is difficult to decide who should determine when this influence is disproportionate. As you will know, those on the right would argue that "the Court party", ie liberals, academics, and elites have too much influence with government in so far as government policy is concerned. Similar complaints are made against feminist groups, pro-choice groups etc. If it was discovered, for example, that a lot of those lobbying for "liberal" policies had unequal access to politicians and bureaucrats, had more financial support, and had more friends in government, as compared to "conservative" lobbyists, would you agree that that is also undemocratic and contrary to a healthy democracy? What's sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander, no?

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  25. This is a good discussion. Couple points, dividing the world into pro and anti Israel factions seems a bit manichean at this point. I support a two state solution and think the immorality and cost to Israel of settlement, seige, assault etc put the long term viability of Israel in doubt. To me that makes me a supporter of Israel. Second, the text book democracy of one person one voice like economic models of perfect competition bear only a resemblance to modern representative democracy. Ever more vigorous debate between narrower points on the spectrum is not a sign of cultural health. If topics are seldom discussed, or are a bit of flotsam on the media wave, who is being "duped". This has nothing to do with the cleverness of the electorate. If a person engages in character assassination via guilt by association and lifting quotes out of context then we are not talking about vigorous debate that is healthy for democracy but rather the opposite.

    On the point you are discussing, the fallacy in the lobby argument may be different. Lewis stated: "I appreciate your concession that those who argue that a "Lobby" has taken control of the government, have the obligation to prove it." What if the lobby is successful when it acts consistently with US overarching concerns? This is the argument of Stephen Zunes and Noam Chomsky, without whom any discussion on this topic is incomplete.

    Stephen Zunes:
    WM's "main arguments are that unconditional U.S. support for the Israeli government has harmed U.S. interests in the Middle East and that American organizations allied with the Israeli government have been the primary influence regarding the orientation of U.S. Middle East policy. As a political scientist and international relations scholar specializing in the United States role in the Middle East, I certainly had no disagreements with their first contention. I took strong exception to their second, however....There is no denying that the Israel Lobby can be quite influential, particularly on Capitol Hill and in its role in limiting the broader public debate....The Israel Lobby is seemingly powerful because it converges with more powerful interests driving U.S. policy, particularly the drive for hegemonic domination of the oil-rich Persian Gulf (see
    http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4837)

    Noam Chomsky rebuts Omar Baddar about the size and power of the Israel lobby at
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFUb-J3XMI - one of 5 pieces that is quite excellent.

    Also see the summary by NYRofB writer Michael Massing on issues raised by the uproar over WM paper:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNQv5YSg_YA&feature=related
    "Whatever one thinks of the merits of the paper, the storm it has kicked up ... should be taken as a warning sign about the limits of America's patience in the Occupied Territories."

    By the way, for those who wish to see interviews with very well spoken personalities, see the Dutch TV show:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2894821400057137878

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  26. One quick follow-up.

    Charles Freeman now apparently thinks there is no "Israel Lobby"! In an interview with Robert Dreyfuss of the Dreyfuss Report, published yesterday in The Nation, Freeman states:

    "The only thing I regret is in my statement I embraced the term 'Israel Lobby.' This isn't really a lobby by, for or about Israel. It's really, well, I've decided I'm going to call it from now on the [Avigdor] Lieberman Lobby. It's the very right-wing Likud in Israel and its fanatic supporters here. Avigdor Lieberman is really the guy that they really agree with. And I think they're doing Israel in."

    There is no Israel Lobby? It has all been about one guy in Israel who now has a few seats in the Israeli Knesset who has been distorting US government policy for all of these years? Whew, that's a relief. No Israel Lobby after all.

    As for Freeman's credentials for the job, one might read Congressman Wolf's account in today's Washington Post concerning why he challenged Freeman. Among other reasons - Freeman's relationships with Chinese business interests, his description of the uprisings in Tibet as "race riots", his criticism of the Tiananmen Square protesters as "dissidents intent on disrupting the normal functions of government" who "should expect to be displaced".

    This is the guy that was going to provide intelligence estimates to President Obama? Thank the Lord for the power of the "Avigdor Lieberman Lobby", I say.

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  27. Professor Klar,

    Excellent point. Chas Freeman continues to expose himself as unstable, intemperate and lacking in judgment. These are hardly qualities that suit one to high office, particularly in security and intelligence.

    As Fakirs Canada has already adroitly stated, this appointment calls into question the BHO Administration's ability to vet. While not selecting the unqualified, the vastly unqualified and the criminally suspect as did the GWB Administration - examples too many to name but let's start with Gonzalez, Miers and Kerik - we simply must hold the BHO Admin to a higher standard. We always knew GWB's inner circle to be of low calibre. Watching them bumble around was akin to "watching a bunch of retards trying to hump a doorknob", to use a quote from my son's favorite movie. See a recent article by David Frum for details: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/05/30/david-frum-on-scott-mcclellan-s-new-book-george-bush-got-the-team-he-deserved.aspx

    With the country and indeed the world in such crisis, and crying out for competent leadership, it is indeed incumbent on BHO to hold to a higher standard than GWB. We all need that.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Witherwood

    For agreeing with several commentators, I've been accused of being them (?). How odd. A simple check of IP addresses should put this to rest.

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